In the USA is it legal to climb in a hole in an overcast whilst VFR, then
go VFR on top, then descend VFR?
T’other question, is there a central e-mail address that I can use to
contact the FAA? I’m still waiting for my Pilots Certificate and my
Temporary one will expire soon.
Cheers
David.
Previously on FAA and other legal stuff…
djtay…@cix.compulink.co.uk ("David Taylor") wrote in article
<Dt1GwC….@cix.compulink.co.uk>…
> In the USA is it legal to climb in a hole in an overcast whilst VFR,
then
> go VFR on top, then descend VFR?
If you can maintain VFR separation from the clouds and have the required
visibility, then yes, you can climb through a hole to VFR on top. It is
legal in the US to fly VFR above a solid cloud layer. The jury is still
out on the wisdom of this. Likewise, a VFR descent is fine as long as you
can maintain VFR distance from clouds, and visibility. This is where it
gets stickey. If you get to where you are going and the clouds are too
thick (despite those weather reports to the contrary), you are stuck on
top. In addition, if anything should go wrong enroute, you have another
problem. Still, you didn’t ask that, you asked if it was legal, and under
the above conditions, the answer is yes.
> T’other question, is there a central e-mail address that I can use to
> contact the FAA? I’m still waiting for my Pilots Certificate and my
> Temporary one will expire soon.
Not that I am aware of, but that’s probably not the best route anyway. I
would recommend that you contact your DE (the guy who gave you the test)
and tell him that you still haven’t received your certificate. He can
then follow up on the paperwork with Oklahoma City. He should also have a
copy of your 8710-1 form (you should too!) in case they lost it (it’s
happened more often than you think).
—
*————————————————————————
| #### #### John Freas, ATP/CFII-ME | Lear 23/24/25
| # # === === === === === === === === === === ===
| ####### #### john.fr…@worldnet.att.net | Anytime, all the time.
*————————————————————————
David Taylor wrote:
> In the USA is it legal to climb in a hole in an overcast whilst VFR, then
> go VFR on top, then descend VFR?
> Yes it is legal as long as you maintain vfr cloud separation distance while climbing
through the hole. Technically that requires a rather large hole. Many people push the
edges of this reg. This being said, I would strongly advise against this for a new
pilot unless you are certain, meaning you have seen for yourself, not forecast, that
there are lots of holes to come back down through.I have talked to a few new pilots and
amazingly even student pilots who have gotten stuck on top doing this and it was a
terrifying experience. Flying on top is cool, but there is plenty of time for that.
That’s what instrument ratings are for. Give yourself some time to get used to flying
basic vfr before you start trying things that you’re not even sure you’re allowed to do.
> T’other question, is there a central e-mail address that I can use to
> contact the FAA? I’m still waiting for my Pilots Certificate and my
> Temporary one will expire soon.
> Cheers
> David.
As far as this is concerned, I know that you can access some faa databases online but I
don’t know if they will deal with you by email.I doubt it. If your temporary is going to
expire soon I would send an overnight certified letter to them asap.Good luck and
congrats. frank
djtay…@cix.compulink.co.uk ("David Taylor") wrote:
>In the USA is it legal to climb in a hole in an overcast whilst VFR, then
>go VFR on top, then descend VFR?
>T’other question, is there a central e-mail address that I can use to
>contact the FAA? I’m still waiting for my Pilots Certificate and my
>Temporary one will expire soon.
>Cheers
>David.
Yes, it is legal as long as you maintain VFR. That means you must
remain the VFR distances from the clouds that created the hole. Once
on top, you must remain VFR also, with respect to the cloud tops.
Alway remember, you don’t want to be too close to the tops or bottoms,
since I may be climbing through the clouds with my B-767 at rates in
excess of 4000 fpm at speeds of .80 Mach. Another important thing:
Holes tend to close rapidly. I have heard many of general aviation
pilot *stuck* on top – lost. Those that try to get down tend to find
the bottoms are no longer at 2 or 3 thousand feet, they are now down
to 200 feet. Many of general aviation pilot has plowed holes into the
ground by developing vertigo. I would recommend you keep training,
get that instrument ticket. That way when you go VFR and a hole
closes in on you, or you can’t out climb the tops, or the bottoms suck
down to CAT 1 mins. you can still get down in one piece.
As far as your ticket. Go to your local GADO or FSDO and show your
expired ticket, they will get you a new one. You might try your
examiner, he too can issue you a new one. I have been getting
licenses and ratings for over 28 years. The permanent license nearly
always comes in during the last week or two of the temp.
Frank
ATP DC-8, DC-9, B-727, B-737, B-757, B-767
David Taylor wrote:
> In the USA is it legal to climb in a hole in an overcast whilst VFR, then
> go VFR on top, then descend VFR?
Yes, as long as you can remain VFR (cloud clearance and visibility
requirements).
> T’other question, is there a central e-mail address that I can use to
> contact the FAA? I’m still waiting for my Pilots Certificate and my
> Temporary one will expire soon.
The local FSDO can extend your temporary certificate. It happened to me
and they didn’t even bat an eye, took all of five minutes.
-Ron
On Mon, 17 Jun 1996 03:14:52 GMT, Jon Morrow <mor…@cs.columbia.edu>
wrote in rec.aviation.piloting:
>Student pilots cannot fly VFR-on-top. FAR 61.90(a)(7): "A student
>pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft when the flight
>cannot be made with visual reference to the surface."
Oops, it’s FAR 61.89(a)(7).
On Sun, 16 Jun 1996 08:33:36 -0400, Francis Martin <schu…@dmv.com>
wrote in rec.aviation.piloting:
>David Taylor wrote:
>> In the USA is it legal to climb in a hole in an overcast whilst VFR, then
>> go VFR on top, then descend VFR?
>I have talked to a few new pilots and amazingly even student pilots who
> have gotten stuck on top doing this and it was a terrifying experience.
Student pilots cannot fly VFR-on-top. FAR 61.90(a)(7): "A student
pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft when the flight
cannot be made with visual reference to the surface."
Jon Morrow <mor…@cs.columbia.edu> wrote:
>On Sun, 16 Jun 1996 08:33:36 -0400, Francis Martin <schu…@dmv.com>
>wrote in rec.aviation.piloting:
>>David Taylor wrote:
>>> In the USA is it legal to climb in a hole in an overcast whilst VFR, then
>>> go VFR on top, then descend VFR?
>>I have talked to a few new pilots and amazingly even student pilots who
>> have gotten stuck on top doing this and it was a terrifying experience.
>Student pilots cannot fly VFR-on-top. FAR 61.90(a)(7): "A student
>pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft when the flight
>cannot be made with visual reference to the surface."
OK…my turn to nit pick… But I am actaully asking just to make sure.
We have been using the term "VFR on top" in this thread. That’s an IFR
operation, right? When we fly over a layer on a VFR flight we call it
"VFR over the top" right?
In real life, unofficial discussions I always say "on top", regardless.
But we are talking about "over the top" here, right?
Curtis
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
C. Wheeler wrote:
> Jon Morrow <mor…@cs.columbia.edu> wrote:
> >On Sun, 16 Jun 1996 08:33:36 -0400, Francis Martin <schu…@dmv.com>
> >wrote in rec.aviation.piloting:
> >>David Taylor wrote:
> >>> In the USA is it legal to climb in a hole in an overcast whilst VFR, then
> >>> go VFR on top, then descend VFR?
> >>I have talked to a few new pilots and amazingly even student pilots who
> >> have gotten stuck on top doing this and it was a terrifying experience.
> >Student pilots cannot fly VFR-on-top. FAR 61.90(a)(7): "A student
> >pilot may not act as pilot in command of an aircraft when the flight
> >cannot be made with visual reference to the surface."
> OK…my turn to nit pick… But I am actaully asking just to make sure.
> We have been using the term "VFR on top" in this thread. That’s an IFR
> operation, right? When we fly over a layer on a VFR flight we call it
> "VFR over the top" right?
> In real life, unofficial discussions I always say "on top", regardless.
> But we are talking about "over the top" here, right?
> Curtis
All valid points. I didn’t say by the way that the student pilots of
whom I spoke were operating legally, only that they had done it. I still
think that it is a questionable practice for a new pilot, however legal
it may be. frank
In article <31C582D6.4…@dmv.com>, Francis Martin <schu…@dmv.com> wrote:
>All valid points. I didn’t say by the way that the student pilots of
>whom I spoke were operating legally, only that they had done it. I still
>think that it is a questionable practice for a new pilot, however legal
>it may be. frank
It’s questionable for any VFR pilot. There’s a term for this sort of
hole in an overcast which dates back at least to WWI. It’s called a
"sucker hole".
———————————————————————–
| Trichinosis, n. The pig’s reply to proponents of
George Patterson – | porcophagy.
| Ambrose Bierce – The Devil’s Dictionary
———————————————————————–
In article <4q15sv$…@liberator.concentric.net>,
es…@cris.com (Frank) wrote:
>djtay…@cix.compulink.co.uk ("David Taylor") wrote:
>As far as your ticket. Go to your local GADO or FSDO and show your
>expired ticket, they will get you a new one. You might try your
>examiner, he too can issue you a new one. I have been getting
>licenses and ratings for over 28 years. The permanent license nearly
>always comes in during the last week or two of the temp.
Frank:
You need to get your facts straight. There are no more GADO’s and designated
pilot examiners may NOT reissue expired certificates; only an FAA Inspector
can do that.
The applicant MUST show up, in person, with a picture id card that looks like
the applicant (many do not, like driver licenses issued years ago…these
won’t work), at any FSDO. Try to do it early in the day and give yourself
some time; your status MUST be verified with the Airman Certification Branch
in Oklahoma City.
Jim Wilkinson
FAA Ops Inspector
Long Beach FSDO
310-420-1755
e-mail: james.m.wilkin…@mail.hq.faa.gov
[The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily
those of the writer OR his most patient employer!]
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Jim Wilkinson wrote:
> In article <4q15sv$…@liberator.concentric.net>,
> es…@cris.com (Frank) wrote:
> >djtay…@cix.compulink.co.uk ("David Taylor") wrote:
> >As far as your ticket. Go to your local GADO or FSDO and show your
> >expired ticket, they will get you a new one. You might try your
> >examiner, he too can issue you a new one. I have been getting
> >licenses and ratings for over 28 years. The permanent license nearly
> >always comes in during the last week or two of the temp.
> Frank:
> You need to get your facts straight. There are no more GADO’s and designated
> pilot examiners may NOT reissue expired certificates; only an FAA Inspector
> can do that.
> The applicant MUST show up, in person, with a picture id card that looks like
> the applicant (many do not, like driver licenses issued years ago…these
> won’t work), at any FSDO. Try to do it early in the day and give yourself
> some time; your status MUST be verified with the Airman Certification
What am I missing here?? I wasn’t aware that FAA issued Airman
Certificates ever expired in the U.S. In fact, I have read they *don’t*
expire, that only the medical certificate expires here in the U.S.
—
Jerry Bransford
PP-ASEL, KC6TAY, C.A.P.
The Zen hotdog… make me one with everything!
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
Jerry Bransford <jer…@cts.com> wrote:
>Jim Wilkinson wrote:
>> In article <4q15sv$…@liberator.concentric.net>,
>> es…@cris.com (Frank) wrote:
>> >djtay…@cix.compulink.co.uk ("David Taylor") wrote:
>> >As far as your ticket. Go to your local GADO or FSDO and show your
>> >expired ticket, they will get you a new one. You might try your
>> >examiner, he too can issue you a new one. I have been getting
>> >licenses and ratings for over 28 years. The permanent license nearly
>> >always comes in during the last week or two of the temp.
>> Frank:
>> You need to get your facts straight. There are no more GADO’s and designated
>> pilot examiners may NOT reissue expired certificates; only an FAA Inspector
>> can do that.
[snip]
>What am I missing here?? I wasn’t aware that FAA issued Airman
>Certificates ever expired in the U.S. In fact, I have read they *don’t*
>expire, that only the medical certificate expires here in the U.S.
Didn’t see the beginning of this so I don’t know what kind of certificate
we are talking about…. but temporary certificates DO expire.
Curtis
> If you can maintain VFR separation from the clouds and have the required
> visibility, then yes, you can climb through a hole to VFR on top. It is
> legal in the US to fly VFR above a solid cloud layer. The jury is still
This is getting complex! There is a suggestion that with a FAA license
on granted on the basis of a CAA licence that this isn’t legal. Anyone,
absolutely and intimlately involved with the FAR’s like to answer this
one?
> would recommend that you contact your DE (the guy who gave you the test)
> and tell him that you still haven’t received your certificate. He can
I’ve phoned them and they said it’s normal, it will take ages – I thought
the CAA were slow!
Cheers
David.
On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, David Taylor wrote:
> This is getting complex! There is a suggestion that with a FAA license
> on granted on the basis of a CAA licence that this isn’t legal. Anyone,
> absolutely and intimlately involved with the FAR’s like to answer this
> one?
< various snips for brevity >
I think you will find that the FAA license allows exactly the priveleges
allowed to ANY holder of the FAA license or certificate, once it is issued.
The path followed to obtain it is absolutely irrelevant at that point.
FAA license/certificate operating in FAA jurisdiction follow FAA regs.
CAA license/certificate operating in CAA jurisdiction follow CAA regs.
No problem.
John
In article <Dt9E9C….@cix.compulink.co.uk>,
djtay…@cix.compulink.co.uk ("David Taylor") wrote:
>> If you can maintain VFR separation from the clouds and have the required
>> visibility, then yes, you can climb through a hole to VFR on top. It is
>> legal in the US to fly VFR above a solid cloud layer. The jury is still
>This is getting complex! There is a suggestion that with a FAA license
>on granted on the basis of a CAA licence that this isn’t legal. Anyone,
>absolutely and intimlately involved with the FAR’s like to answer this
>one?
All US pilot certificate issued on the basis of a foreign pilot
license (only to member-states belonging to ICAO) are issued with the
following restriction: "All restrictions and limitations on the [ original ]
license apply." What this means is that, if you can’t do it there, you can’t
do it here.
>> would recommend that you contact your DE (the guy who gave you the test)
>> and tell him that you still haven’t received your certificate. He can
>I’ve phoned them and they said it’s normal, it will take ages
It takes about 3 months for a permanent certificate to be issued.
It’s a while.
Jim Wilkinson
FAA Ops Inspector
Long Beach FSDO
310-420-1755
e-mail: james.m.wilkin…@mail.hq.faa.gov
[The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily
those of the writer OR his most patient employer!]
In article <Pine.SOL.3.91.960620105000.14707u@reliant>,
"John R. Johnson" <j…@siu.edu> wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Jun 1996, David Taylor wrote:
>I think you will find that the FAA license allows exactly the priveleges
>allowed to ANY holder of the FAA license or certificate, once it is issued.
>The path followed to obtain it is absolutely irrelevant at that point.
>FAA license/certificate operating in FAA jurisdiction follow FAA regs.
>CAA license/certificate operating in CAA jurisdiction follow CAA regs.
Not true, John. See my other posts on this subject. There ARE limitations on
US pilot certificates issued on the basis of foreign licenses.
Jim Wilkinson
FAA Ops Inspector
Long Beach FSDO
310-420-1755
e-mail: james.m.wilkin…@mail.hq.faa.gov
[The opinions expressed herein are not necessarily
those of the writer OR his most patient employer!]
My original thread related to a Temporary A.C. which lasts for 120 days.
I’m in the UK so popping along to my local FSDO is a rather expensive
trip!
David.
Jim Wilkinson (jam…@microsys.net) wrote:
: All US pilot certificate issued on the basis of a foreign pilot
: license (only to member-states belonging to ICAO) are issued with the
: following restriction: "All restrictions and limitations on the [ original]
: license apply." What this means is that if you can’t do it there, you can’t
: do it here.
But what is the difference between "restrictions and limitations on the
[original] license" and a difference in the rules regarding operations of
an aircraft? If you can’t do it because of a limit on your certificate,
it’s one thing; if it’s because of a difference in the rules of
operation, it’s another.
Flying VFR above a cloud deck is regulated (or not) in Part 91, it is not
tied to my license. In contrast, my license does limit me to Part 91
operations (private pilot,) single engine land, VFR only.
I would expect that persons operating in this country are expected to
follow the rules of Part 91, not the rules of their home country.
Gerry
–
Gerry Caron "Opinions are mine, not my employer’s."
gca…@rt66.com PH: 800-328-1995 or 505-884-2321
Terra Corp. ABQ FAX: 505-884-2384
On 24 Jun 1996 09:28:55 -0600, gca…@mack.rt66.com (Terra Corp.) wrote in
rec.aviation.piloting:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -
>Jim Wilkinson (jam…@microsys.net) wrote:
>: All US pilot certificate issued on the basis of a foreign pilot
>: license (only to member-states belonging to ICAO) are issued with the
>: following restriction: "All restrictions and limitations on the [ original]
>: license apply." What this means is that if you can’t do it there, you can’t
>: do it here.
>But what is the difference between "restrictions and limitations on the
>[original] license" and a difference in the rules regarding operations of
>an aircraft? If you can’t do it because of a limit on your certificate,
>it’s one thing; if it’s because of a difference in the rules of
>operation, it’s another.
>Flying VFR above a cloud deck is regulated (or not) in Part 91, it is not
>tied to my license. In contrast, my license does limit me to Part 91
>operations (private pilot,) single engine land, VFR only.
>I would expect that persons operating in this country are expected to
>follow the rules of Part 91, not the rules of their home country.
That’s exactly why the rule exists– there are some countries that place
restrictions on their license that apply even while outside their
sovereign airspace. For example, a Canadian private pilot is not allowed
to fly at night unless the license is specifically endorsed for night
flight. If a non-night-rated Canadian pilot was to get an FAA license
based simply on his Canadian license, it would *also* be limited to
day-only flight, even though night VFR is a basic privilege of the U.S.
private license.
—
Chris Rasley <http://www.mi.net/dialin/cpr>
Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada. High-Enroute ATC (CZQM), PP-ASEL
>Yes, it is legal as long as you maintain VFR. That means you must
:>remain the VFR distances from the clouds that created the hole. Once
:>on top, you must remain VFR also, with respect to the cloud tops.
:>Alway remember, you don’t want to be too close to the tops or bottoms,
:>since I may be climbing through the clouds with my B-767 at rates in
:>excess of 4000 fpm at speeds of .80 Mach. Another important thing:
:>Holes tend to close rapidly. I have heard many of general aviation
:>pilot *stuck* on top – lost. Those that try to get down tend to find
:>the bottoms are no longer at 2 or 3 thousand feet, they are now down
:>to 200 feet. Many of general aviation pilot has plowed holes into the
:>ground by developing vertigo. I would recommend you keep training,
:>get that instrument ticket. That way when you go VFR and a hole
:>closes in on you, or you can’t out climb the tops, or the bottoms suck
:>down to CAT 1 mins. you can still get down in one piece.
That’s exactly why the old-timers used to call those gaps in the clouds